Workers Union

[appleyum]

Are you for or against?

[Aluvus]

Depends enromously on the industry.

I can say from experience that there are certain industries that have been almost ruined by certain unions. But that doesn't make unions universally bad.

[dalesd]

The history of unions is a history of violence.

In principle, unions could conceivably be just voluntary associations of workers seeking to improve their own economic wellbeing, just like everyone else, including the combinations of individuals who we label as "corporations." This public school image of unionism (taught to Americans by unionized government employees) is of happy-faced workers marching merrily into the boss’s office singing "Solidarity Forever," with legal pads under their arms filled with bullet points listing their demands for better wages and working conditions. What could be wrong with that?

But a basic understanding of the elementary economics of unionism, and of the history of unionism, explains why violence against competitors has always been an inherent feature of unionism, even apart from the "violence" of state-imposed legislative privileges that unions enjoy. Historically, the main "weapon" that unions have employed to try to push wages above the levels that employees could get by bargaining for themselves on the free market without a union has been the strike. But in order for the strike to work, and for unions to have any significance at all, some form of coercion or violence must be used to keep competing workers out of the labor market.

Full Article - The Myth of Voluntary Unions (http://mises.org/fullstory.aspx?Id=1604)

[teencraft]

We need a purely capatilistic society, NO unions and no minimum wage!!

[slayter]

We need a purely capatilistic society, NO unions and no minimum wage!!

That has been tried before and look where it got people.


http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/hsc0245l.jpg

[teencraft]

That has been tried before and look where it got people.

It's better than communism.

[wingram75]

i'd like to oppose them, but mine has gotten me so much- and i'm only part time. Full benefits, doubled salary in 2 years, and no matter waht i do i can't be fired, and a pension- how can I go against all that?

[Danman114]

I think, like many, they are good and bad. Certain industries that have them, shouldn't and there are some the should but don't. I don't particularly like teachers unions soley because my experiance with them is that they keep the old senial (sp) teachers for longer, while laying off youthful energetic ones first... I also worked at a Stop and Shop and it pissed me off to, but I was parttime in high school.

I think they work well with skilled labor (carpenters etc...) ensureing quality labor, but it does raise the price.

Where they need it, but often don't have it is in places were people work in a dangerous environment for little money. Meat packing industry, Fish cleaning (in the south, from what a have read in Fast Food Nation, its pretty nasty stuff they put up with.)

[wingram75]

I think, like many, they are good and bad. Certain industries that have them, shouldn't and there are some the should but don't. I don't particularly like teachers unions soley because my experiance with them is that they keep the old senial (sp) teachers for longer, while laying off youthful energetic ones first... I also worked at a Stop and Shop and it pissed me off to, but I was parttime in high school.

I think they work well with skilled labor (carpenters etc...) ensureing quality labor, but it does raise the price.

Where they need it, but often don't have it is in places were people work in a dangerous environment for little money. Meat packing industry, Fish cleaning (in the south, from what a have read in Fast Food Nation, its pretty nasty stuff they put up with.)


I work for Stop and Shop dude. How can that piss you off? Check out htose benefits described above. I'm on easy street there and only work 1 day a week. $150 for one day of work at a place like that is insane. Sure the company is going to og belly up some day, but its employees have it pretty good for having no futrther education.

[HuTcH]

my take on unions is this... they have their ups and downs...

The biggest downfall is you cannot fire a union worker...

My wife works in the telecom industry and the NYC SBC unionized labor are the best example of this. They are guarenteed a job weather they show up on time or not weather they complete the job like it shoul dbe done or not weather they document what was done correctly or not

basically they can do whatever the hell they feel like and because they are union they don't have to worry abou ttheir job... while i do agree in some cases they are beneficial.. but i do believe unionis do step beyond their bounds...

[The Raddish]

I was out on an arsenal the other day, working on a government piece of equipment. The shop I was in was a union shop.

I needed a metal plate removed from the piece of equipment I was working on. Four screws, and I had a screw driver in my tool kit. It should have been a 20 second job.

I was told that I could not remove the metal plate, that it HAD to be done by a union member. Four hours later, one finally shows up, without a screw driver. I tried to lend him mine, but he HAD to get one from the tool closet, to justify the existence of yet another union member to hand out tools.

Two hours later, he comes back to remove the metal plate. Six hours have now passed, with me on the clock, for a 20 second job. I did not have enough time to complete the task I was assigned to do, because of the fact I was in a union environment. To make things worse, the metal plate had to be reattached before I could leave. You guessed it, it had to be done by a union member.

Unions are the reason that we pay upwards of $20,000 for $10,000 cars. Unions are the reason that shipping and airline prices are so high. Unions are the reason that meat prices are triple what they should be. Unions are the reason that our ports are not as secure as they should be, particularly on the West coast.

Unions will be the death of the capitalist society. Our government has made extortion legal, in the form of unions.

Unions should be 100% completely abolished. We have laws that protect workers from dangerous environments. We have child labor laws, and many other laws that have been passed with the help of unions around the turn of the century. Unions had their place in society when our society first became industrialized. They have no place in society today.

If an employer wishes to pay $6/hr for an unskilled labor position, and that position is worth $10/hr, he will have a hard time keeping that position filled at the lower wage, forcing him to increase the pay. Conversely, if an employee feels that he is not making enough money for a job that he does, he is free to negotiate for more money from his employer, or leave for a better opportunity elsewhere. The market will take care of itself.

Unions cost us all, dearly. Steaks at $5.00/lb that should be $2.00/lb. Cars that are double what they should be. Airline prices that are more closely tied to union demands than the actual service you get. Unions serve no purpose other than to extort money that doesn't belong to them from the rest of society.

I go out of my way to intentionally attempt to purchase non-union goods and services when I have a choice. I encourage you all to do the same.

[Danman114]

I work for Stop and Shop dude. How can that piss you off? Check out htose benefits described above. I'm on easy street there and only work 1 day a week. $150 for one day of work at a place like that is insane. Sure the company is going to og belly up some day, but its employees have it pretty good for having no futrther education.
I worked in the deli there my first 2 yrs in college. The pay was ok, but the people I worked with didn't work as hard as me, weren't as neat and clean, and had no ambition to do a proper job. Thats great you are on easy street, most of the work is fun there, I just had the 'bad' experiance of working with lazy union workers.

Unions are the reason that we pay upwards of $20,000 for $10,000 cars. Unions are the reason that shipping and airline prices are so high. Unions are the reason that meat prices are triple what they should be. Unions are the reason that our ports are not as secure as they should be, particularly on the West coast.

Unions will be the death of the capitalist society. Our government has made extortion legal, in the form of unions.

Unions should be 100% completely abolished. We have laws that protect workers from dangerous environments. We have child labor laws, and many other laws that have been passed with the help of unions around the turn of the century. Unions had their place in society when our society first became industrialized. They have no place in society today.

If an employer wishes to pay $6/hr for an unskilled labor position, and that position is worth $10/hr, he will have a hard time keeping that position filled at the lower wage, forcing him to increase the pay. Conversely, if an employee feels that he is not making enough money for a job that he does, he is free to negotiate for more money from his employer, or leave for a better opportunity elsewhere. The market will take care of itself.

Unions cost us all, dearly. Steaks at $5.00/lb that should be $2.00/lb. Cars that are double what they should be. Airline prices that are more closely tied to union demands than the actual service you get. Unions serve no purpose other than to extort money that doesn't belong to them from the rest of society.

I go out of my way to intentionally attempt to purchase non-union goods and services when I have a choice. I encourage you all to do the same.
I don't like the examples you gave.

How many cars are actually 'made in America' now? Is it the Mexican unions that are the problem? I know Jeep has a factory in America, and there are probably a few here and there, but I thought most of the cars were produced in Mexico.

I also like to share the blame with rising Airfares with the more than doubled price of oil. You must have been PUMPED about the deregulation of that industry a few years back...

And the meat packing industry... Can someone point to a good book about the glories of slicing open cattle, spilling their guts all over your self, and stripping the meat off of it? Or how bout the good times that are had cleaning up that filth with probably some pretty potent chemicals that attack not only the cow germs but also your lungs. Seriously. Are there any books out there that say " Hey its not that bad" because everyone I have read (or article) has been pretty criticle of the manner in which they treat their employees. ( I was also under the impression that the meat cutters union existed in Stores, not meat packing plants, but I could be wrong)

While I understand that often times unions can have an unfair advantage over companies, who is our constitution supose to protect? Companies or the people? I find it difficult to beleive that it is worth paying people an unlivable wage so that I can get cheaper (probably less quality) meat

[HuTcH]

umm there are more american made vehicles than you think... FORD GM and Chrysler still have many plants as well as Toyota and honda and i believe several other manufacturers...

[appleyum]

I was told that I could not remove the metal plate, that it HAD to be done by a union member. Four hours later, one finally shows up, without a screw driver. I tried to lend him mine, but he HAD to get one from the tool closet, to justify the existence of yet another union member to hand out tools.
LOL my aunt was told she couldn't move a box because it's union work.

What pisses me off a lot is union like to claim their workers can do a better job than non-union workers. Even something as simple as unscrewing a metal plate or moving a box. WTF?

I think Union has gone off from what it's original intented. Now it's more of greed/political than fighting for workers rights. Quite a few union leader running it isn't workers from the job. The union strike in the news are more for show to prove union leader at work. Why the hell can't they agree a contract BEFORE the deadline?

Lastly, I do think some jobs are going oversea because of Union. Companies don't have deal with union with oversea workers.

[TrickySlicky]

I use to think that Unions had their place and time and that their time had past not unlike the dinosaur era. But I think about my wife and her job and question whether it might be a good idea for her to be in a union, it's not a money issue, since she makes pretty good money. Rather its a work place environment issue where the conditions are degrading and workload increasing. Management does not seem to care about quality but only quantity.

[appleyum]

I use to think that Unions had their place and time and that their time had past not unlike the dinosaur era. But I think about my wife and her job and question whether it might be a good idea for her to be in a union, it's not a money issue, since she makes pretty good money. Rather its a work place environment issue where the conditions are degrading and workload increasing. Management does not seem to care about quality but only quantity.
Form a temporary Union? Instead of have one sitting around for too long and get corrupted or get greedy like most career politician. Not to mention no costly union member fees.

[adams135]

I have been a Union member and on the other side (Management) and IMHO Unions were a necessary evil MANY years ago but now have outgrown and outlived their usefulness and need.

They were created with the intent of helping the workers which they did …. But now they are nothing but a business themselves.

HuTcH and Raddish’s comments brought back memories from years ago.

I remember one time going to see the Head guy at a Hyatt House .. I went to the front counter and they tried to phone the back offices to let them know I was there. They couldn’t get anyone to answer so they finally just took me back.

Long story short .. the Hyatt House manager tells me the lights on his stes don’t work so they don’t know when they get a call (from anywhere … in-house and from the outside). I checked and found a blown fuse (I was a technician for years before this). I also found spare fuses and it would have taken me 10 seconds to replace (no tools needed) .. BUT I COULDN’T .. why … because I was management and the Union would have filed a grievance on me ..

So, the hotel had to wait another 20 minutes for a union tech to show up and spend 10 seconds changing the fuse. Of course none of the administration of the hotel could receive and calls during this time but so what .. it was only a customer.

As for HuTcH’s story about New York .. I could spend hours telling horror stories about the Telephone Company and the Union there .. stories which most people wouldn’t probably believe.

If you want to know what good the present day unions are just look at the coal miners in West Virginia … because of the union most (not some but MOST) of the miners are out of work and have been for years.

No .. the UNIONS have outlived their usefulness and needs to go.

[wingram75]

I worked in the deli there my first 2 yrs in college. The pay was ok, but the people I worked with didn't work as hard as me, weren't as neat and clean, and had no ambition to do a proper job. Thats great you are on easy street, most of the work is fun there, I just had the 'bad' experiance of working with lazy union workers.


I'm in the same situation and i agree completely. Most of the people are lazy and useless. I suppose if your in a union you love what it does for you, but if your not and stuff like that that happened to the Raddish happens to you it demonstrates their major drawbacks. I saw this fat guy i worked with stomach butt the store manager and knock him over. The manager fired him and the next day he showed up with the union legal team. Two hours later- back at work.

[appleyum]

Union = tainted by lawyers ;)

[Drio]

Bah! Unions! What a crock. Think they'll ever just 'dissolve'?

[teencraft]

Bah! Unions! What a crock. Think they'll ever just 'dissolve'?
Why would they? People get more than they deserve so they kick back some to the Union, the Union gets the kickbacks so starts working harder to get their workers more, it's a vicious cycle. I don't see how it could dissolve without government intervention.

[BikerEric]

Unions are the reason that we pay upwards of $20,000 for $10,000 cars. Unions are the reason that shipping and airline prices are so high. Unions are the reason that meat prices are triple what they should be. Unions are the reason that our ports are not as secure as they should be, particularly on the West coast.


Unions are the reason you have a decent salary.
unions are the reason you have health care insurance.
Unions are the reason you have vacation days.
Unions are the reason you have workers compensation laws.
Unions are the reason you have retirement benifits.
Unions are the reason you may have a job when you get older and a little slower.
If you think most companies would gladly give these benifits on their own, Methinks you might be mistaken, Especially in today's labor climate. If you think the "stockholders" would approve of these benefits over their profits...
There areno economics in producing common things that the employees can't afford to buy..i.e. cars, refrigerators, durable goods. Do you honestly think the manufacturers would roll back prices if magically wages and benefits were rolled back 50%? I think they would roll up their profits.
Just my 1 cent (now)

[Patchou]

We should have a Union for corporate executives. Their salaries are so low and most don’t even get health care. I can wait to see Bill Gate and Donald Trump in the street to complain about their low incomes.

[dalesd]

Unions are the reason that we pay upwards of $20,000 for $10,000 cars. Unions are the reason that shipping and airline prices are so high. Unions are the reason that meat prices are triple what they should be. Unions are the reason that our ports are not as secure as they should be, particularly on the West coast.

Unions are the reason you have a decent salary.
unions are the reason you have health care insurance.
Unions are the reason you have vacation days.
Unions are the reason you have workers compensation laws.
Unions are the reason you have retirement benifits.
Unions are the reason you may have a job when you get older and a little slower.
If you think most companies would gladly give these benifits on their own, Methinks you might be mistaken, Especially in today's labor climate. If you think the "stockholders" would approve of these benefits over their profits...
There areno economics in producing common things that the employees can't afford to buy..i.e. cars, refrigerators, durable goods. Do you honestly think the manufacturers would roll back prices if magically wages and benefits were rolled back 50%? I think they would roll up their profits.
Just my 1 cent (now)


All of these things happend because of capitalism. They happened in spite of unions.

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1590

[edited for length]

The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours. Those who did not offer shorter work weeks were compelled by the forces of competition to offer higher compensating wages or become uncompetitive in the labor market.

Capitalistic competition is also why "child labor" has all but disappeared, despite unionist claims to the contrary. Young people originally left the farms to work in harsh factory conditions because it was a matter of survival for them and their families. But as workers became better paid—thanks to capital investment and subsequent productivity improvements—more and more people could afford to keep their children at home and in school. Union-backed legislation prohibiting child labor came after the decline in child labor had already begun. Moreover, child labor laws have always been protectionist and aimed at depriving young people of the opportunity to work. Since child labor sometimes competes with unionized labor, unions have long sought to use the power of the state to deprive young people of the right to work. In the Third World today, the alternative to "child labor" is all too often begging, prostitution, crime, or starvation. Unions absurdly proclaim to be taking the moral high road by advocating protectionist policies that inevitably lead to these consequences.

Unions also boast of having championed safety regulation by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) over the past three decades. The American workplace has indeed become safer over the past century, but this was also due to the forces of competitive capitalism, not union-backed regulation.

An unsafe or dangerous workplace is costly to employers because they must pay a compensating difference (higher wage) to attract workers. Employers therefore have a powerful financial interest in improving workplace safety, especially in manufacturing industries where wages often comprise the majority of total costs. In addition, employers must bear the costs of lost work, retraining new employees, and government-imposed workman’s compensation whenever there is an accident on the job. Not to mention the threat of lawsuits.

Investments in technology, from air-conditioned farm tractors to the robots used in automobile factories, have also made the American workplace safer. But unions have often opposed such technology with the Luddite argument that it "destroys jobs."

[Patchou]

We need a purely capatilistic society, NO unions and no minimum wage!!Finally a solution!
We should , screw the working class as much as we can so we can get richer, and exploit the poor from other countries as well.

[eaglescout48]

Socialist...
What do you think I voted?
"Workers of the world unite!"

[BikerEric]

All of these things happend because of capitalism. They happened in spite of unions.

http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1590

[edited for length]

The shorter work week is entirely a capitalist invention. As capital investment caused the marginal productivity of labor to increase over time, less labor was required to produce the same levels of output. As competition became more intense, many employers competed for the best employees by offering both better pay and shorter hours. Those who did not offer shorter work weeks were compelled by the forces of competition to offer higher compensating wages or become uncompetitive in the labor market.

Capitalistic competition is also why "child labor" has all but disappeared, despite unionist claims to the contrary. Young people originally left the farms to work in harsh factory conditions because it was a matter of survival for them and their families. But as workers became better paid—thanks to capital investment and subsequent productivity improvements—more and more people could afford to keep their children at home and in school. Union-backed legislation prohibiting child labor came after the decline in child labor had already begun. Moreover, child labor laws have always been protectionist and aimed at depriving young people of the opportunity to work. Since child labor sometimes competes with unionized labor, unions have long sought to use the power of the state to deprive young people of the right to work. In the Third World today, the alternative to "child labor" is all too often begging, prostitution, crime, or starvation. Unions absurdly proclaim to be taking the moral high road by advocating protectionist policies that inevitably lead to these consequences.

Unions also boast of having championed safety regulation by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) over the past three decades. The American workplace has indeed become safer over the past century, but this was also due to the forces of competitive capitalism, not union-backed regulation.

An unsafe or dangerous workplace is costly to employers because they must pay a compensating difference (higher wage) to attract workers. Employers therefore have a powerful financial interest in improving workplace safety, especially in manufacturing industries where wages often comprise the majority of total costs. In addition, employers must bear the costs of lost work, retraining new employees, and government-imposed workman’s compensation whenever there is an accident on the job. Not to mention the threat of lawsuits.

Investments in technology, from air-conditioned farm tractors to the robots used in automobile factories, have also made the American workplace safer. But unions have often opposed such technology with the Luddite argument that it "destroys jobs."



Am I to believe that companies are looking out for the workers and not the profits?
The reason all the landscapers here in balto/wash are using illegal south american workers are because "American don't want to work" . Right, they dont want to work for $4.00 an hour with no benefits or ot. So, I'm sure the profits and capitolistic methods don't apply here.
I will agree that unions may not be the answer for everything but it is surely better when workers have some say in their jobs and future.
And you still haven't addressed the issue of age
"Unions are the reason you may have a job when you get older and a little slower."
BTW nice cut and paste

[The Raddish]

Unions are the reason you have a decent salary.
unions are the reason you have health care insurance.
Unions are the reason you have vacation days.
Unions are the reason you have workers compensation laws.
Unions are the reason you have retirement benifits.
Unions are the reason you may have a job when you get older and a little slower.
Wrong. Capitalism is the reason we have these things. Employers were forced to pay higher salaries for positions in order to remain competitive, along with offering other incentives to work for one company over another, such as time off, benefits, etc. In order for a company to maintain a productive labor force, it had to offer a benefit to its employees to stay working for it. If Company A had employees that worked 80 hours/wk, at $4 an hour, and Company B had employees that worked 60 hours/wk at $5 an hour, there would be a shift of the labor force toward Company B. Company B's employees would also be happier and more loyal toward the company they worked for. A happy employee is generally a more productive employee, and so both the company and the employee benefit from this relationship.

Now, Company B's products are churning out faster and more reliably than Company A. So Company A must compete for a share of the more productive labor force by offering a higher salary, more time off, and benefits. You see, competition works both in the marketplace, as well as in the labor markets.

Further, these things all happened BEFORE unions ever got involved. A little studying of history would go a long way in telling you how such things came about. The union mantra that the unions are responsible for all of the labor laws today is just tripe. More than anything else, unions got in the way of progress.

If you think most companies would gladly give these benefits on their own, Methinks you might be mistaken, Especially in today's labor climate. If you think the "stockholders" would approve of these benefits over their profits...
Wrong again. It is in both the company's and the employee's best interest to have an amicable relationship. The happier the employees are, and the more well taken care of they are, the more productive they will be. This is true of both specialized labor and non-specific labor. It costs money for an employer to hire and fire an employee. They have a direct financial incentive to keep their workforce in place, and keep them productive. This includes, but is not limited to, offering higher compensation, retirement packages, security, benefits, time off, etc.

There areno economics in producing common things that the employees can't afford to buy..i.e. cars, refrigerators, durable goods. Do you honestly think the manufacturers would roll back prices if magically wages and benefits were rolled back 50%? I think they would roll up their profits.
Just my 1 cent (now)
Yes they would, again because of competition. It is a very simple and basic formula that everyone in even a basic economics class will be taught. There is a downward sloping demand curve when it comes to goods and services. The higher-priced the good, the fewer people will purchase it. If a company wants to stay competitive, it will lower its prices to gain market share. Other companies will then be forced to do the same, until an equilibrium is reached. The market sets prices, not the companies. Therefore, the market sets profits as well. It is up to the company to find ways to decrease costs in order to stay competitive, and this includes things like research and development into faster, newer, cheaper technologies. The company will continue to incentivize its labor force to do well for them at the same time.

Unions serve no purpose other than to extort money that does not belong to them and give that money to an increasingly lazy and unproductive labor force. Companies are then forced to deal with this labor force and try to find a way to stay profitable at the same time. They are forced to raise prices, and that hurts all consumers, including those in the union. So the unions then try to force a company to pay them even more, forcing prices to be driven up further. In the end, everyone suffers, and the union members have gained nothing.

What do you think would happen if there were five companies that produced identical items, but one of the companies was a union company? How long do you think that company would stay in business? It wouldn't be long before the union company would have to close its doors, and all those union workers would be out on their asses looking for work. What's the point of a union if you aren't employed?

Remove unions and minimum wage laws and all other types of government intervention, and the market will work itself out. You will be left with fairly paid incentivized workers producing goods and services for much less than the lazy unionized extortion artists, goods will be cheaper for everyone, and competition will drive market forces instead of inflated and bloated unions. Everyone wins, except the corrupt heads of the unions who now have to be a productive part of society instead of leeching off of the work of others.

[The Raddish]

Am I to believe that companies are looking out for the workers and not the profits?
Looking out for the workers is looking out for profits.

I will agree that unions may not be the answer for everything but it is surely better when workers have some say in their jobs and future.
This is a common misconception. The job does not belong to the worker, it belongs to the employer. The employer can do what he wishes with that job. Fortunately, the employer wants to make money, so he will find a person to fill that job that will make him money. This includes offering incentives for someone to take that job. If a person doesn't want to work for the money offered, the employer will be forced to increase the pay and benefits to get a productive worker to fill that position. Pure economics, plain and simple.

You are arguing with emotion, and economics is an emotionless science.

[HuTcH]

I have never been a union worker nor do i plan to ever be yet I have health benifits vacation and decent pay. while unions of old may have helped to span some of this they are no longer the reason these benifits exist.

Companies have done enough research to find that employees work better, more effeciently, and are less likely to be absent when they have proper healthcare, and other health benifits like gyms and such. I work for xerox while here we have no unioins esp in the IT world i know some of xerox has to be unionized in Rochester, but we have a workout facillity that we are free to use. This was the same in Vartec a completely non union telecom.
I do believe if unions were still doing what they were originally chartered for keepping the employees safe then they would still be useful.. but they have way stepped their bounds imo

[appleyum]

Everyone wins, except the corrupt heads of the unions who now have to be a productive part of society instead of leeching off of the work of others.
There should be a rule union can only be run by people from work, not a career union leader, lawyer, or soon to be/former politican.

I onc saw a monthly/yearly statement for a union, I saw quite a few charges I don't even understand why they need it.

[adams135]

Come on people … Unions are Great … so what if most of the coal miners in West Virginia have been out of work for years because of the Union.

Without the unions where would be today. I mean really … look at them.

The Air Traffic Controllers Union showed Reagan … illegal or not THEY were going to flex their muscles and show the Government ….. When they stuck they didn’t back down when President Reagan gave them an ultimatum about returning to work or get fired since it was against the law.

And where would our teachers be without the unions. I mean damn … think about it … without the Union they might actually have to be held accountable. We can’t have that.

[adams135]

And now we will see a good realtime example of a Union at work.

Although the link provided is about the "beer thrower" it does list the penalities for the players involved ... inckuding games suspended.

Now the "Union" (or better known as the Millionairs Club) is getting involved.

I think it will be very interesting to see what they finally end up with AFTER the "Union" has its say.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports/3938054/detail.html

[XXnarg]

http://reason.com/0007/bok.gif

[Squeezy]

my take on unions is this... they have their ups and downs...

The biggest downfall is you cannot fire a union worker...

basically they can do whatever the hell they feel like and because they are union they don't have to worry abou ttheir job... while i do agree in some cases they are beneficial.. but i do believe unionis do step beyond their bounds...

I have employees that are members of a union. In the past 2 years, I have fired 4 union workers. It can be done, you just have to document.

[dalesd]

http://reason.com/0007/bok.gif
What are you doing over at Reason.com? I thought you'd turn to dust if you surfed over there. ;)

[Captal]

Good information guys, a lot of stuff I didn't know or hadn't thought about

[caffeinetrip]

I agree with Captal, I didn't know too much about how Unions worked and now feel more educated on the subject.

[adr]

Unions are the spawn of capitalist free socieities. Business have every right to dictate what they pay what their benefits are. If the employees don't like, they are free to find another job and company is free to hire someone to work under those benefits and pay. I think we all agree with statement. Now the flipside. Workers can team together and tell the company want higher pay and better benefits, workers have the right to walk off the job because we of the free society thing. And business has the right to fire them all an hire new people. Problems happen when government interferes and adds laws that states businesses can't fire striking workers or they force the striking workers back to work. Then it upsets the balance of power to one side.

[sassysour]

If you like your 40 hour work week, and paid overtime after that....
thank a union.

If you like your weekends off
thank a union.

If you like paid holidays
thank a union.

I completely agree that unions are corrupt. They are into a lot of bad crap. But they have completely changed and helped the work force, and people enjoy these benefits not even realizing why they are there.

My husbands boss just got fired after 43 impeccable years of service. He got to work, found his office locked, was shown to the executives office. They took his keys, already had all of his stuff packed up, and drove him home so that they could take the corporate car. It was called "early retirement". My boss called my husband and said NEVER let them break the union.

We think we don't need that type of protection, because we are unknowingly reaping the benefits of that protection. There are times I can't stand the union myself, but I know that with the bad comes a lot of good.

[innerlogik]

I go out of my way to intentionally attempt to purchase non-union goods and services when I have a choice. I encourage you all to do the same.

You should probably move out of your house and quit your job because those buildings were more than likely framed, wired, plumbed, and HVACed by union workers.

Not all unions are bad, most provide extensive training and job placement with great benefits. I'd rather live in a house that was union built vs. one built by illegals. But if you want to generalize your assumptions based on a failing auto / aviation industries unions feel free.

[Parafly9]

I was thinking about this this morning on the way into work. The teachers union in Boston was going to strike for one day today, but they ended up voting against it. I think these unions are ridiculous, public school teachers should be fired for participating in a strike.

I say this with the fact that my wife is in the teacher's union, non in Boston, but in a suburb south. You really have no choice as a teacher to join, at least not unless you want some job security or to get hassled. I think it's stupid - the whole thing- I could see 100 years ago when the tycoons were beating on employees, but most companies I believe today have some level of ethics they try to adhere to to help employees. Because most companies today recognize that happier employees = more productive employees, to a point.

Union members are completely exploited by union bosses. I work in the construction industry, and we pay $95 an hour to our subcontractors for a union carpenter, of which he makes around $40 an hour. On my last job, we had a sprinkler fitter who was working 60 hours per week and taking home in his paycheck $3600 per week gross, his $45 hour salary plus double-time over 40 due to union regs.

I think they had their place 100 years ago, but now it's just ridiculous. it is ludicrous to me that you can't fire a horrible teacher because she/ he is tenured. It's ridiculous to me that all teachers make the same pay based on time in position - regardless of how well you actually teach.

What a f#$#ked up system.

[Parafly9]

You should probably move out of your house and quit your job because those buildings were more than likely framed, wired, plumbed, and HVACed by union workers.

Not all unions are bad, most provide extensive training and job placement with great benefits. I'd rather live in a house that was union built vs. one built by illegals. But if you want to generalize your assumptions based on a failing auto / aviation industries unions feel free.

By the way, I don't think most union members are bad. They really have no choice. If you want to work in the city, you need to be in the union, period. It really is the union bosses that are corrupt beyond belief. I saw a job stop for two days because union officials were fighting over who owned installing rebar into drilled holes. 30 guys didn't work for 2 days because of a fight over "principle". Those guys don't care - they just want to do their job.

As a construction manager, if I even pick up a chair and move it to another side of the room, I can be the instigating cause for a strike.

I would rather have a house built by a merit shop and save 20% and get a better product than pay 20% more and have some union built house whose quality is in no way superior, and may in fact be inferior, to the merit shop, because at least the merit shop will send qualified workers my way and not just workers who forced their employers to keep them on the payroll even though they are inadequate at their jobs.

[Pizzaguru]

The UAW is killing Chrysler, Ford and GM. :cool:

The UAW is a blessing for Pfizer drug company and a curse for GM.
Did you know that GM spents $17 million per year on Viagra?
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/04/gm_viagra.html

:doh:

[ASG]

Why is it that a hospital will negotiate better rates with an insurance company than they will with an individual (keep this example to elective procedures)?

[appleyum]

I was thinking about this this morning on the way into work. The teachers union in Boston was going to strike for one day today, but they ended up voting against it. I think these unions are ridiculous, public school teachers should be fired for participating in a strike.

I say this with the fact that my wife is in the teacher's union, non in Boston, but in a suburb south. You really have no choice as a teacher to join, at least not unless you want some job security or to get hassled. I think it's stupid - the whole thing- I could see 100 years ago when the tycoons were beating on employees, but most companies I believe today have some level of ethics they try to adhere to to help employees. Because most companies today recognize that happier employees = more productive employees, to a point.

Union members are completely exploited by union bosses. I work in the construction industry, and we pay $95 an hour to our subcontractors for a union carpenter, of which he makes around $40 an hour. On my last job, we had a sprinkler fitter who was working 60 hours per week and taking home in his paycheck $3600 per week gross, his $45 hour salary plus double-time over 40 due to union regs.

I think they had their place 100 years ago, but now it's just ridiculous. it is ludicrous to me that you can't fire a horrible teacher because she/ he is tenured. It's ridiculous to me that all teachers make the same pay based on time in position - regardless of how well you actually teach.

What a f#$#ked up system.

Similar story happened in NJ back in December. It wasn't even a strike.. it was a preemptive strike. Teachers took day off to go protest. A few school had to be canceled because no teacher. Some parents and outspoken non-union people were angry because they could have pick another day to protest and there was a school off(Christmas vacation) within a week.
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:qoi1TTomdNMJ:www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article%3FDate%3D20061211%26Category%3DNEWS%26ArtN o%3D61211008%26SectionCat%3DCOMMUNITY%26Template%3 Dprintart+NJ+teacher%27s+union+protest&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
TRENTON — Thousands of public workers have gathered in front of the Statehouse this morning, hoping they can deliver a message loud enough to get lawmakers to back off from making pension or benefits cuts part of their property tax session.

New Jersey State Police estimate there are 7,000 teachers, firefighters and other government workers gathered by the Statehouse steps, stretching across West State Street, which is closed to traffic, into a small park.

The event has attracted national and state labor officials. Mike Billirakis of the National Education Association executive committee said New Jersey schools are at the top of the nation for graduation rates and college attendance.

"Is there anyone here getting a year-end bonus? Is there anyone getting stock options? ... How about a note of appreciation from the folks you serve?" Billirakis said, and the crowd yelled back, "No!"

"I'm on the steps of one of the richest states in the nation, in one of the best educational systems, and you get no respect," Billirakis said, prompting another "No!" from the crowd.

Participants are waving banners -- some reading "I Earned My Benefits" and "Negotiate, Don't Dictate" -- and foam hands. Occasionally, they chant, "We're
not the problem!"

Speakers began addressing the crowd a bit before noon. Before that, people spent nearly an hour warming up by listening to songs from Gary Glitter ("Rock and Roll (Part Two)"), the Black Eyed Peas ("Let's Get It Started") and Twisted Sister ("We're Not Gonna Take It").

Unions organized today's rally because the Senate and Assembly may begin taking up proposals aimed at reducing property taxes. The proposals that anger the unions -- such as making workers pay more for their health insurance premiums and changing the pension formula and retirement age for future workers -- aren't on today's legislative agenda.

The path ahead for any pension and benefits changes is unclear, after two letters to legislative leaders in recent days from Gov. Jon S. Corzine, one asking them to shelve consideration of any changes that affect rank-and-file workers, the next suggesting if lawmakers want to pass such changes they should and implying he might then veto it.